Paul.This condition is unsafe. The discharge drain extension is typically taken to just a few inches above the floor or in some jurisdictions it may be directed outdoors - a solution that I think is risky because IF the valve should be leaking, dripping, etc., one wants to notice that and fix it to keep the system safe.The inspector's report makes a valid point: we should never route the discharge tube "up" from the actual outlet opening of the TP valve. In fact you might want to check out the opinion at Discharge from a relief valve into a water heater pan shall be prohibited. temperature and pressure relief valve or water treatment device It would be useful to know what research was done to support accepting this up-draining TPR design, presumably using a temperature sensor that shuts down the boiler if hot water is found at the bottom of that tee at the TPR valve outlet. During a routine maintenance, Does this suggest that I need to replace the T&P relief valve? Be constructed of those materials listed in Section 605.4 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1. Werner Slken offers a nice explanation of these concerns. I have a relief valve right on top of my steam boiler, it doesn't have a discharge outlet but it has openings right on top of it where i see some, if not too much steam coming out, it should be replaced or it is normal? In our OPINION the design you show violates CA 608.5 Discharge Piping 608.5 Discharge Piping - The discharge piping serving a temperature relief valve, pressure relief valve, or combination of both shall have no valves, obstructions, or means of isolation and be provided with the following: Equal to the size of the valve outlet and shall discharge full size to the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing down. These include hydronic heating boilers (hot water boilers), steam boilers, and all types of water heaters, both those that use a water storage tank or cylinder and those that heat water on demand such as tankless water heaters. do you think that's the reason it keeps leaking. cross connection control device or assembly, or a furnace or air /UNLIME Specific De liming Instructions for use with Up-N-Down Transfer If the other end of that line is not already readily visible and in a location where it would be noticed, that too would be unsafe and improper.The FIX for this unsafe condition is usually trivial: the discharge tube must be routed only "downwards" from the TP valve outlet opening, and the end of the discharge tube must be in a readily accessible, visible, and safe location. - B.N. We are puzzled. The pigtail drain may appear to work perfectly to drain the residing water in the vertical section of the discharge line for the relief valve at initial installation and testing, experience suggests to us that debris, especially mineral scale, is epidemic at water heater relief valves, especially if the leak at the valve is a slow drip. 4800 Rev.

| Above is an illustration of an [American Standard] electric water heater installed with a drain pan - notice the relief valve discharge pipe routing. (3) The discharge pipe cannot be readily plugged or otherwise obstructed. Water heater rocket myth: Mythbusters water heater explosion video produced in 2007, web search Sept 25 2010, original source: Both of these installations are improper and unsafe. In my opinion, the safest design, especially where we're avoiding a very dangerous catastrophe (BLEVE) is the simplest one with fewest parts that need to work to protect the building and its occupants. - white plastic discharge tube not to code? There is water FLOWING from the DISCHARGE TUBE on my Triangle Tube, indirect fired water heater. Watch out: a discharge tube is required on TP valves to avoid scalding burn hazards. 7/11/2013. 5 (f) The discharge pipe for a water heater shall terminate within the same room or enclosure within which the water heater or hot water storage tank is located. 3. The temperature steam rating of a combination temperature and pressure relief valve or valves shall equal or exceed the energy input rating in BTU per hour of the water heater. My new tankless water heater is in a place in my basement (finished) where there is no floor drain. 2022/01/12. Watch out: in our OPINION this installation may not be safe nor reliable in all water heater installations. On 2020-02-21 by Eleni thanks. That passage of water leaves scale that ultimately blocks the valve. As you can see from the example I give below, a typical residential boiler relief valve costs less than $100. Recently we replaced our 14 year old Ultra 310 Boiler with a new Evergreen 399 Boiler. (happened already). We now have a new Evergreen Boiler and the copper was removed and replaced with a blue plastic discharge tube. Be installed so as to flow by gravity. I am in the process of selling a condo I own. That would mostly eliminate the need to dry the pipe out, or at least reduce the consequence. may discharge through the cover of a clear water sump so as not In our OPINION that is an unsafe and questionable relief valve design in that any TPR that drains "up" is at risk of ultimately depositing mineral salts that can lead to the valve refusing to open in response to an over-temperature or over-pressure condition in the boiler, risking a catastrophic BLEVE explosion. Really? My client burst into tears. To "stop" an annoying boiler drip at the pressure temperature relief valve, the mechanic installed a short length of pipe capped by a drain valve which he could simply shut. Water heater video #2, Mythbusters exploding water heater demonstration, a 50 gallon water tank explosion, Our recommended books about building & mechanical systems design, inspection, problem diagnosis, and repair, and about indoor environment and IAQ testing, diagnosis, and cleanup are at the. You might detect a clogged pigtail drain on an upwards-piped relief valve drain during an annual test of the TPR valve: the valve is opened to discharge and then closed; afterwards you should see a small volume of water exiting from the pigtail drain as the remaining water in the up-piped larger diameter TPR discharge tube drains out through the pigtail. The small diameter and flow resistance of the coiled tubing causes any significant volume of TPR valve discharge to be routed up through the vertical TPR valve drain line from the tee, and the combination of tee and short copper nipple connected to the wound copper tubing are probably intended to prevent standing water or debris accumulation at the mouth of the TPR valve itself. InspectAPedia tolerates no conflicts of interest. Such scale might easily clog the small-diameter copper pigtail "drain" tubing itself, leading to a relief valve malfunction. I can't say that I understand it nor what that pigtail is doing as shown in the illustration (though I make some guesses) - what is it? The photos above illustrates this unsafe installation practice: a 1/2" copper tube has been installed through a reducing fitting into the mouth or piping of a 3/4" diameter TPR valve. Perhaps if I explain the concern in my own words it will be more clear:The temperature/pressure relief valve on a water heater is connected to a drain line so that if the valve opens someone nearby is not shot in the face with hot water. U.S. An hour of plumber's time to install the tube costs $50. OPINION: If the small diameter pigtail drain clogs the homeowner will never know it. OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY, On 2021-01-18 by (mod) Here we describe the installation specifications for TPR valve drain line piping and we include an extensive list of discharge tube installation or condition defects, most of which are unsafe. A "P" Trap could be installed about 10" under the T&P. I looked through the code book (IRC) and can't find any where that states it must be mechanically attached. Water trapped in the discharge line may cause the T & P Working together may make us smarter. Incidentally, that water heater insulation is not required and in some installations can be itself unsafe, e.g. 7.

Less dramatic but scary, at a different inspection I found that a string tied through a small hole in the end of the TPR valve's test lever. A water-heating device connected to a separate storage tank and having valves between said heater and tank shall be provided with an approved water pressure relief valve. (The concern is if the water overheats and turns to if the installation for my boiler said use 50psi and the tech put in 30psi relief valve. The plastic Reliance -brand T&P discharge pipe I show here is sold by plumbing suppliers locally and on-line for about $12. Thanks again for the head's up on the up-pigtailed TPR. Plastic discharge tube extensions may be unsafe if the plastic is a type that may deteriorate, melt, or rupture when exposed to hot water. A visible location, or if to a not-visible location, search Inspectapedia for TUNDISH and use one of those at the heater. Or where can I find it in writing? (Search InspectApedia.com for that term)Turn off the boiler to avoid damaging it. Smith Water Products Company - hotwater.com/lit/training/4800r9.pdf 800-433-2545 - 01/07/2009. [11] "Four hurt as water heater explodes", Elaine Porterfield, Paul Shukovsky, Lewis Kamb, [12] 4. The result over time could be that the valve becomes clogged and would then fail to open in a true emergency - risking, ultimately a dangerous BLEVE or water heater explosion.Watch out: ALSO, I suspect from the photo that your water heater has a discharge tube that directs the valve outlet into a wall and going to who knows where. While TPR valves may come with an instruction to test the valve annually, in five decades of building inspections of thousands of buildings we have not found more than a handful of building owners who ever test a relief valve nor even know of that requirement. The reasoning is simple: discharging the TPR tube end in a more-remote location increases the risk that a leak goes un-attended and the system becomes unsafe. Is there any requirement that the fitting and pipe extension is required to be made from copper? 4778* All about Deliming Coil-Type/Tube-Type Commercial Water Heaters and Hydronic Boilers *Normally supplied when ordering Part No. accordance with subs. Discharge pipe shall discharge independently by gravity through an air gap into the drainage system or outside of the building with the end of the pipe not exceeding 2 feet (610 mm) and not less than 6 inches (152 mm) above the ground and pointing downwards. The house's main sewer line is right next to the water heater but about 28" above the base of the water heater (ie not a floor drain). Could the same be done with the condensate line? This looks to me like a "good idea" that has not yet seen long-term testing in real-world conditions. 4800 Rev. Practically - adding another messy detail, if your water heater sits in a drip or spill tray then the bottom of the discharge pipe will have to jog out and over and down to get past the outer edge of the drip tray, so the drip tray itself is going to space the heater and most of the discharge pipe a bit more-distant from the wall. When a relief valve continues to leak it may become damaged and then fail to operate when an unsafe pressure or temperature occurs. were told that the white plastic was not to code and should be replaced with copper. Doug. Only a complete fool would do what we found on this boiler. U.S. 4930 Motorized Deliming Pump Kit, [8] Rheem Electric Water Heater "Owners Guide and Installation Instructions", (Australian models) rheem.com.au/images/pdf/owners_dom-elec_121996C_0707.pdf, [10] 52 Questions and their Answers [about] Hot Water [Heaters, Explosions & Water Heater Safety], Watts Regulator Company (1973). Below the reducer from 3/4" to 1/2" was installed at the TPR valve opening. This is an unsafe condition as the operation of the temperature or pressure relief valve may be interfered with by the insulation and also because the valve cannot be inspected for evidence of leaks or failure. Temperature and pressure relief valves shall be installed so that the sensing element of the valve extends into the heater tank and monitors the temperature in the top 6 inches of the heater or tank. mueller relief pressure manifold valve kit safety But it's easy to check. Nothing in their installation instructions prohibit use of flexible lines per-se but in summary, it is certainly possible to find two violations: 1. the flexible line, if not connected at both ends, could be bent "up" causing an unsafe condition. 4. It's worth noting to your landlord both orally and in writing immediately that, More information is at RELIEF VALVE, WATER HEATER, Thank you. 13 March 2015 Stan Stan the Inspector Man said: Can 3/4-inch flexible copper tubing sections (with FIP ends) be legally used in any part of a water heater's T&P discharge line? This article describes the requirements for a discharge tube or drain line on temperature & pressure relief valves used on any appliance that heats water. Your earlier photos were incomplete in that detail . The discharge piping serving a temperature relief valve, pressure relief valve, or combination of both shall have no valves, obstructions, or means of isolation and be provided with the following: Equal to the size of the valve outlet and shall discharge full size to the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing down. Pigtail uprouted TPR for below grade basements (PUTPRfbGB)? (7) (a) 2. and (8). I now understand from our correspondence that this is not a temperature sensor, it's a flow-resistive drain. relief temperature pressure - Anonymous by private email 2021/05/04, Watch out: as you already know this water heater is unsafe, risking a very dangerous. Later explanation from Mr. Nesbitt clarified that the copper pigtail is a small diameter "drain" intended to remove water from the vertical portion of the relief valve up-piped drain line after the valve has discharged water during an over-pressure or over-temperature or test condition. valve to corrode and malfunction. All of them are improper.

Zurn Engineered Water Solutions, retrieved 12/23/12, original source: http://www.zurn.com/Pages/ProductsList.aspx?NodeKey=398872, [1] "Residential Electric Water Heater Installation Instructions and Use & Care Guide", American Water Heater Co., October 2001, American Water Heater Co., Johnson City, TN, [manufacturer of residential & commercial water heaters, also manufacturer of Polaris/Commercial water heaters], Tel: 800-999-9515, web search 1/12/2012, original source: americanwaterheater.com/support/manuals/res-elect.pdf [copy on file] [Technical review requested 1/25/2011], [2] ANSI Z21.22 - 1986, provides requirements for pressure/temperature relief valves I have a T&P that is just inserted into a PVC drain line that goes to the outdoors. (many handyman people could also do this job). (Probably the appropriate approach but rather difficult given rocky soil condition and distance.) 7 and 4813-100. Maybe to get it out of the way of a basketball or something. Take a look at where the TPR valve is connected to your water heater; if it's on a side (near the top of course) then you need working space for the valve. I much appreciate the discussion and polite well-intended argument. And depending on the kind of water heater and its fuel you will need to meet clearances from combustibles (that includes your wall). (Probably not permitted because it is above floor height?) Just how fast that unsafe condition occurs depends on variables including. So, which should it be? A water system containing storage water heating equipment shall be provided with an approved, listed, adequately sized combination temperature and pressure-relief valve, except for listed nonstorage instantaneous heaters having an inside diameter of not more than 3 inches (80 mm). They consider it legal under the California Plumbing Code, and thus not an AMMR, just an accepted method. Is there a legal option of looping the relief valve discharge tube up through the band board of my house so it can drain to the outside? Hi there just wondering why my TPR doesn't discharge at all and i tested it by lifting the lever and it was flowing freely outside and stopped when i released it back?Is that normal?Thanks. At left we see a typical TPR valve installation (by the author) including the vertical 3/4" copper drain piping that will discharge any T&P valve spillage to the floor. I like the pigtail approach because it offers a better chance for the owner to notice if there's a drip drip leak

You'd probably find these same instructions in the installation manual for the water heater.The COST for this repair should be no more than a simple plumbing service call and perhaps a few piping connections. The local waste piping serving a water heater temperature Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage. (d) Safety devices: Water heaters shall be equipped with safety devices as specified in this paragraph. You said: "the cost to cure is trivial" Yes, but I'm thinking it might/should be a little more--based on the opinion of a couple of plumbers I've spoken with--and the tank's age. You can pipe a tp valve down and to a floor drain provided the end of the extension remains visible. The other solution to this same problem would be TPR's rated for two way immersion. It's a similar hazard to the one that occurs even in a down-piped TPR valve when the valve is constantly dripping or leaking. The indirect or local waste piping serving a water heater 13. Our Comment Box is provided by Countable Web Productions countable.ca, Click to Show or Hide Citations & References, COMMONLY USED RESIDENTIAL BUILDING CODES, IRC 2009, WISCONSIN PLUMBING CODE, Chapter SPS 382, DESIGN, CONSTRUCTION, INSTALLATION, SUPERVISION, MAINTENANCE AND INSPECTION OF PLUMBING, CALIFORNIA 608.3 EXPANSION TANKS, AND COMBINATION TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF VALVES, CALIFORNIA 761. On 2020-07-15 by (mod) - can I just dump the T&P valve into a crawl space under a slab? The Temperature & Pressure Relief Valve or TPR Valve on any heated appliance that contains water, such as a heating boiler, hot water tank, water heater, water cylinder, must have a drain line or discharge tube properly installed, routed, and made of proper materials. valve discharge relief tpr water tube drain tubes installation pressure piping valves boilers heaters inspection specifications temperature Back in 2016, Justin Phillips at AICHE, something similar: " The most effective and efficient mitigation or elimination of risk is achieved at the earliest juncture and at the most fundamental level, The most effective and efficient mitigation or elimination of risk is achieved at the earliest juncture and at the most fundamental level, (Justin 2016). With the TPR going outside a drip drip could go unnoticed a very long time. There are immediate life-safety hazards at the property, The cost to correct them might be trivial. Eleni SO if I I were a building inspector given final authority I'd object to that installation. Purdue's chart shows the number of pounds of lime deposited per year as a function of the water usage in gallons per day, with an assumed 10 grains of water hardness. Easton, PA 18040 Even if a plumber charged a minimum of an hour's labor to unscrew the old valve and screw in the new one and its discharge tube that ought not amount to a substantial total (where I read "substantial" as hundreds of dollars) unless there was something rather unusual and costly going on in your home. I agree that the worst does not always happen; if it did there would be no doubters. - unsafe, improper TPR valve installation: wrong location, improper drain piping. Watts Water Technologies, No. heater valve water relief pressure tpr temperature plumbing tp valves schematic faqs heaters test were requirements installation prv american leaks The TPR valve needs to be installed in a tapping on the heater itself, near the top or on the top, as provided by the manufacturer; if you give the brand and model of water heater we may be able to find the installation manual that will show those exact details. Note: appearance of your Comment below may be delayed: if your comment contains an image, web link, or text that looks to the software as if it might be a web link, your posting will appear after it has been approved by a moderator.

"T&P and ASME Safety Relief Valves", (2011), retreived 10 Dec 2012, original source: http://media.wattswater.com/PG-TP-ASME.pdf, In sum, a relief valve discharge tube that is not pointing downwards may become unsafe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJoyuUJj2Q, [13] Compare the actual boiler pressure when leaks are seen with the valve rating. But I might not object to use of the same tubing connecting properly between a valve's discharge opening and a proper destination.

On 2019-11-11 by (mod) - is it ok for the TP valve to drip or leak? Those would be most helpful. Does TP valve on residential water heater use a p-trap - Xavier, No Xavier, the discharge from a TP valve should not be trapped it's discharge end should be visible. Pipe the T&P and condensate lines to a sump with a float to pump outside. 5 (a) The discharge pipe and fittings shall be made of a material acceptable for water distribution piping in accordance with s.Comm 84.30 (4) (e) 1. Smith's Form No. On 2020-07-15 by Doug H This except [adapted for clarity] from the Uniform Plumbing Code is excerpted from the U.S. state of Utah's adoption of the code: The [TPR valve] discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature-relief valve or combination valve shall: 1.

[3] Pounds of lime deposited vs. temperature and hot water usage: see Purdue Bulletin #74 (also provided by A.O. I think your photo of the water heater shows rust at its bottom; an old water heater and especially a rusty one that has suffered leaks over its life is at greater risk of bursting - a BLEVE explosion risk.

Be constructed of those materials indicated in Section P2906.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1. "A substantial amount of money" worries me. Call your service company as this is va safety concern. Discharge to the floor, to the pan serving the water heater or storage tank, to a waste receptor or to the outdoors. These loadings could affect or prevent the proper operation of the device including proper reclosure after operating, Most descriptions of safe and proper TPR valve discharge piping presume that there is no copper pigtail drain and will specify, "The discharge piping should be sloped from the outlet to facilitate drainage."

Every relief valve which is designed to discharge water or steam shall be connected to a discharge pipe. 5 (e) The discharge pipe shall be installed to drain by gravity flow to a floor served by a floor drain or to a receptor in accordance with s. Comm 82.33 (8). (3) The discharge pipe cannot be readily plugged or otherwise obstructed. TPR valves drip far more often than they flow at volume. when installed in accordance with sub. if it blocks view of or draining of a relief valve. It looked like a thermocouple as might be found on a temperature sensor and its bottom was cut-off in the photo so we couldn't see its final connection.

The cost to cure is trivial: a few dollars in plumbing parts and, of course, the plumbers labor charge. Similarly, discharging a relief valve leakage or drip to a location where the leak or drip cannot be observed is a dangerous practice because the leak can go unnoticed, causing failure to recognize an unsafe condition. Where a hot-water storage tank or an indirect water heater is located at an elevation above the fixture outlets in the hot-water system, a vacuum relief valve that is in accordance with CSA Z21.22 shall be installed on the storage tank or heater. They don't seem to care to look as closely at things like temperature and pressure relief valves as your inspection website does--but I wish. 2. No, Gina that is NOT a safe nor an approved installation. It's way better than the method of putting a manual drain valve there, which of course will be left in the wrong position. Discharge piping connected to the device must be supported so as not to impart any loadings on the body of the device. from the TPR. temperature and pressure relief valve, water treatment device, There is a drop of water at the discharge tube mouth that may be telling us that this valve leaks - which risks valve clogging by mineral scale and again risking that it cannot work safely if called-on to do so. Her son, playing with friends in the basement, lost an eye when he and a pal opened the discharge lever on a heating boiler, scalding his face and ruining his left eye forever. I inferred from the product design in your photo that an engineer or someone had added a temperature sensor intended to detect spillage as heat and thus to act as a different method of shutting off an unsafe hot water heating appliance. Even though the discharge of water into an area may not, in your opinion, cause damage to the building, the point of discharge must be visible so that someone can spot trouble (leaks) before a catastrophe occurs. Example: here is an excerpt from Wisconsin's Plumbing Code ( WI Comm 82.40 (5) (d) (1) and (2) 1-5 (a-f)).

10. - Kevin 7/26/2011. The discharge pipe may not be threaded. This might have been installed on a system for other reasons, such as connecting a hose to permit easy draining of pressure off of the boiler through the TP valve. (Hellemans 2009). [6] A.O. When I spoke to the lead inspector in Berkeley CA they said they copied from San Jose CA. Terminate not more than 6 inches (152 mm) and not less than two times the discharge pipe diameter above the floor or waste receptor flood level rim. Not be directly connected to the drainage system. His son and friends liked to play steam boat. U.S.

to adversely affect floats by means of a fixed air gap installed in The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall: 9. if you are an inspector or plumber who wants to be credited as a technical contributor I can add your contact info there.

Hi I would appreciate if you could advise where I should direct the relief valve pipe to.The 45 litre electric hot water unit is installed under the kitchen bench inside the cupboard in a unit.

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